The Threat of Daesh: A Conversation with Amb Chas Freeman
Published: March 9, 2015 http://susris.com/2015/03/09/the-threat-of-daesh-a-conversation-with-amb-chas-freeman/
The annual Middle East tour d’horizon keynote remarks of Ambassador Chas W. Freeman, Jr.,
have become staples at the Arab-US Policymakers Conferences in
Washington. His unvarnished assessment of the landscape facing America
and its partners in the Arab world, shared in the latest in the AUSPC
series, included a thorough review of the Daesh threat and the prospects
and internal divisions challenging the coalition aligned against it.
“The revelation that anarchy also empowers Islamists is now cutting into American enthusiasm for regime removal. Think Iraq, Libya, and Syria. But as Americans trim our ideological ambitions, the so-called “Islamic State” — which is as Islamic as the Ku Klux Klan is Christian so I’ll call them Daesh — is demonstrating the enduring potential of religious fanaticism to kill men, maim children, and enslave women in the name of God.“The United States and many NATO countries are now engaged against Daesh from the air, with a bit of help from a few Arab air forces. So far, however, the Shiite coalition of Iran, Hezbollah, and the Iraqi and Syrian governments has been and remains the main force arrayed against Daesh on the ground outside the Kurdish domains. This has exposed the awkward fact that Iran has the same enemies as the United States, if not the same friends. In the region that coined the adage, “my enemy’s enemy is my friend,” everyone is waiting to see what — if anything — this might mean. For now at least, Daesh is a uniquely brutal force blessed with an enemy divided into antagonistic and adamantly uncooperative coalitions.”
SUSRIS recently spoke with Ambassador Freeman, who served as America’s top diplomat in Riyadh from 1989-1992, about the legacy of King Abdullah.
He was kind enough, at the conclusion of that interview, to entertain
several questions about the problems in countering Daesh and the
perception among some of Washington’s regional allies concerning
relations with Iran. We are pleased today to provide his insights and
perspectives on these important topics for your consideration. We will
also reprint Ambassador Freeman’s remarks from the October 2015 Arab-US
Policymakers Conference in a separate item.
The Three Dimensional Threat of Daesh: A Conversation with Amb Chas W. Freeman, Jr.
[SUSRIS] A year ago few
people had heard of ISIS or ISIL or the Islamic State. Now it is the
transcendent security threat in the Middle East and beyond. What are
your thoughts on this challenge?
[Amb. Chas W. Freeman, Jr.] I think we’re mishandling it. The one exception to all of the words of praise that I uttered in our earlier conversation about King Abdullah’s legacy [Link]
is that, in his last years, he was misled by key advisers and pandered
to opinion in Saudi Arabia by carrying out a foreign policy organized
mainly on sectarian lines. This makes no sense if the geopolitical
problem is Iran. To weaken Iran’s hold on their fellow Arabs, the Saudis
should be emphasizing their Arab identity, not their schismatic Sunni
identity.
The Saudis have a terrible problem in
Daesh. I don’t like to call it ISIS or ISIL. Neither they nor we have
handled this problem at all effectively. But there are some indications
that King Salman – perhaps with help from Prince Mohammed bin Nayef – understands this and the Saudi policy may be shifting.
Daesh is a three-dimensional thing.
First, it is an idea – a renegade idea within Islam – and, second, it is
a political movement. It has the structure of a state. I mean every
attribute of a state – territory, tax collection, the enforcement of
order, judicial authority – is now present in Daesh. And, third, Daesh
is a military force. It has a very effective infantry, now US-equipped
by virtue of the Iraqi army’s retreat and abandonment of its weapons and
transport equipment on the battlefield. Daesh has to be attacked on all
three dimensions, not just the military one.
The U.S. cannot lead an effort to deal
with renegade Muslims. We have no authority, no knowledge, no
competence, no standing to say who is a Muslim and who is not, what a
Muslim is, and whether Daesh fits within that definition or not.
It’s also ironic for non-Muslim
Americans to object to Daesh as non-Muslim. Daesh is Takfiri. It
pronounces anathema on Muslims as well as the people of other religions.
Daesh strikes me as a terrible perversion of Islam but it does not make
sense for us to emulate it by arrogating to ourselves the right to
declare that Daesh is not Muslim. It makes sense for non-Muslims to shut
up and to insist the Saudis and others who do have the standing to
undermine or attack or discredit Daesh’s religious credentials do that,
with us helping but only in the background and not even visible.
Second, on the political front we’re not
in a position to reconstitute the Iraqi state. We may have destroyed
Iraq by invading and occupying it but Nouri al Malaki and the
overambitious Shiite majority then completed the job. Only Iraqis can
reunite Iraq.
Click for larger map.
Syria fell apart in part because of the
sectarian nature of the divisions and fighting in Iraq, which was
communicated to Syria, producing contagion there and ultimately erasing
the Syrian border with Iraq. We’re not in a position to address the
political problems that come about from the collapse of Sykes-Picot or
the collapse of the authoritarian states that succeeded the colonial
governments that Sykes-Picot created. Those governments were designed to
facilitate divide and rule policies by colonial regimes, and divide and
rule is how the subsequent governments have governed. That’s all broken
down. We can’t do anything about that.
What we can do is supplement the efforts
of regional military forces. We have military and intelligence
capabilities they don’t. But again, we should not be in the forefront.
This is ultimately a struggle within Islam, within the region, within
the Arabs, perhaps between the Arabs and Iran and in none of those
contests are we competent to lead.
So the question now is will King Salman
step into the leadership vacuum that we have partly and mistakenly
attempted to fill, and help us out. After all Daesh wants to rule in
Mecca and Medina not in Washington.
There is a pattern of commentary
emerging which counters the mindlessly militaristic John McCain-Lindsey
Graham position. There’s a good article by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post
this morning [“An ideological war American must watch, not fight”], for
example, which makes some of these points. We’re not yet sophisticated
enough, apparently, about these issues to deal effectively with them but
we are beginning to think about how to do so.
[SUSRIS] Where do you fall out on the Washington parlor game of whether it’s called countering violent extremists or Islamic radicals?
[Freeman] As I said
it’s not for us to make that distinction. I think the President is very
wise not to label this as a war on any particular Islamic idea because
the implications of that would be that we are at war with 1.6 billion
people and their faith. One of the basic rules of statecraft is not to
multiply your enemies but diminish them.
The debate here doesn’t deserve the
title debate. It’s part of ‘gotcha’ politics, and it’s very
dysfunctional. But that shouldn’t be news because our government is
dysfunctional.
So what could we do about this? King
Salman just sponsored a conference, though he didn’t attend. He had
Khaled al Faisal read out his speech in Mecca but it was devoted to the
first two of these issues which are the ones that only the Arabs can
deal with, mainly the ideological or theological questions and the
political issues. We ought to get behind that. But we ought to be saying
look, this is a Muslim problem, it’s an Arab problem and we will be
helpful, but we are not going to take the lead because we can’t.
That is a very difficult message to put
over in a Washington where the main renewable resource seems to be
hubris. It’s election season. We’ve got all kinds of posturing going on.
We have many presidential candidates,
none of whom have any ideas at all about what to do about these issues
other than more of the same. That includes the lead candidates. Jeb Bush
certainly doesn’t understand any of this and he is being advised by the
very people who got us into Iraq and who bear ultimate responsibility
for creating the conditions that fostered Daesh. Hillary Clinton led the
charge into Libya — that turned out to be not so smart — and encouraged
the destabilization of Syria. That also hasn’t worked out too well for
anyone but Daesh.
So we’ve got people running for office
who are not qualified to deal with these issues: Hillary by her record,
and Jeb by his ignorance and his advisors. Paul Wolfowitz as an advisor
again? Give me a break.
[SUSRIS] There were not too many fresh names on the list.
[Freeman] One hopes
it’s basically symbolic, but if it is symbolic it’s symbolic of deep
incompetence in our statecraft. I’ve said all this before. At the Arab-US Policymakers Conference [Link] last October I lamented how everything we have been trying to do in the Middle East has gone awry.
We don’t have any standing or answer on
any aspect of the situation in the Holy Land – Israel or Palestine.
We’ve lost control of the issues. We’ve now got Netanyahu coming to
Washington basically to join the Republicans in abusing the President.
I’m no fan of this president but it’s disgusting to watch this. It’s
being facilitated by people in Congress who have pledged allegiance to a
foreign country and are more committed to its leader than our own. They
have to be among the least patriotic politicians in our history.
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu addressed the U.S. Congress about the P5+1/Iranian nuclear negotiations on March 3, 2015
Israel has its problems but we have lost control of our problems, specifically the problem of Daesh.
We don’t know what we’re doing. We don’t
have good relations, basic cordial, good relations, or mutual trust now
with anybody in the region – not Israel, not Egypt, not Saudi Arabia,
not the U.A.E., not Iran, not Turkey, not Syria, not Iraq, not even the
Kurds in Irbil.
We don’t have a diplomatic strategy. We don’t even have politicians who know what diplomacy is.
What are we doing? There’s no effective
strategy for dealing with the ideological and political issues. The
purely military approach we have taken is facilitating the metastasis of
anti-Americanism with global reach.
This problem is now all over the Sahel
and North Africa and in the heart of Africa, in Pakistan and
Afghanistan, and you know it also has some resonance in the Caucasus and
even in Europe.
We’re just not dealing with it. We don’t
know what to do. We imagine that you can deal with it as you could with
an enemy army: decapitate it; take out its leadership and it falls
apart.
Well, this is a political structure.
It’s a network that you can’t decapitate because by definition you can’t
decapitate a network. It’s partly a political structure that requires
compromise between people over whom we no influence. We can’t deal with
the political aspects of Daesh effectively unless there’s some sort of
understanding among Iraqis and among Syrians and between Riyadh and
Tehran, and we’re very far from that.
My fear with respect to the nuclear
negotiations is that we will do a deal with Iran – one which under the
circumstances will be the best we can do and much better than not doing a
deal. The Israelis will then either succeed or not in derailing that
deal. If they derail it, Iran will go nuclear. If they don’t succeed in
derailing it they will raise sufficient doubt about it in the course of
their attempts to do so that they will erode its credibility enough to
force the Saudis and others into proliferation. In either case, Riyadh
will have no confidence in the possibility of holding Iran to nuclear
latency or precluding its building weapons.
The question is, if the Saudis believe
that an Iranian nuclear breakout is possible in a fairly short
timeframe, what do they do? Will they have any confidence that there
will be no breakout?
I think we’re much better off with an
agreement than with no agreement, but the fact is that nothing’s
perfect. Meanwhile, we’ve got the nuclear counter-proliferation
advocates as well as the Israeli lobby agitating against any
rapprochement with Iran for reasons that have nothing to do with Saudi
concerns.
The gurus of the non-proliferation effort write in the New York Times
that we have to do this, this, and this to hem in Iran – an entirely
coercive approach, all sticks and no carrots. All technical approaches
and no strategy. Nobody’s making an effort to think about how to address
the security issues that might drive Iran to actually field a nuclear
deterrent. We need a strategy on that level, and we don’t have one.
We probably also need to administer some
tough love to Riyadh. “Hey, guys you live in the region. We’re happy to
support you up to a point, but you cannot afford an entirely
confrontational approach to Iran. This business of conducting a
simultaneous war of religion and geopolitical rivalry with the Persians
doesn’t serve your interests and it doesn’t serve ours. It facilitates
the rise of things like Daesh, which are mainly a menace to you, not
us.”
We need to have a serious conversation
about regional strategy with Riyadh. But that presumes that we’re
capable of strategic thought – for which there’s very little evidence at
present.
[SUSRIS] Is the larger problem the sentiment in Riyadh that Washington is going soft on Iran?
[Freeman] Of course,
that is the concern and underlying it is Saudi recollection of the days
when Iran, not Saudi Arabia, was our principle partner in the region. I
don’t think it’s realistic to imagine a return to those days, but it’s
easy to understand the Saudi concern. Saudi fears may not be well
grounded but they’re there. There’s no doubt about this.
Secretary of State John Kerry meeting King Salman bin Abdulaziz in Riyadh, March 5, 2015 (SPA)
We need to restore confidence in our
sense of strategic direction and steadfastness. The problem goes well
beyond Saudi Arabia. There’s no one in the region who believes we know
what we’re doing or can be counted upon to do it — not General Sisi, not
King Salman, not the late King Abdullah, not the terribly exposed King
Abdullah II in Jordan, not Prime Minister Netanyahu. There’s no on in
the region who thinks we listen to them or pay attention to what they
think. Dysfunctional government at home does not stop at the water’s
edge.
Amb Chas Freeman was interviewed by SUSRIS by phone on Feb. 27, 2015***
More on SUSRIS with Amb Freeman:
- The Legacy of King Abdullah: A Conversation with Amb Chas Freeman – SUSRIS – Mar 3, 2015
- The Legacy of King Abdullah: A Conversation with Amb Chas Freeman – SUSRIS – Mar 3, 2015
- Saudi Arabia and the Oil Price Collapse – Freeman – SUSRIS – Feb 9, 2015
- Ambassador Chas Freeman Discusses U.S.-Saudi Relations – CCTV – SUSRIS – Nov 17, 2014
- Amb Chas Freeman AUSPC2014 Keynote – SUSRIS – Nov 1, 2014
- The Collapse of Order in the Middle East – Ambassador Chas Freeman – SUSRIS – Oct 31, 2014
- Obama’s Foreign Policy and the Future of the Middle East – Freeman – SUSRIS – Jul 24, 2014
- Focus KSA: Amb Chas Freeman on US-Saudi Relations, Obama Visit (Transcript) – SUSRIS – Mar 26, 2014
- AUSPC2013 | Keynote – Kaleidoscopic Change – Freeman – SUSRIS – Oct 22, 2013
- Rethinking Relationships – US, KSA, Egypt, Syria, Russia: A Conversation with Chas Freeman – SUSRIS Aug 29, 2013
- More on SUSRIS with Ambassador Freeman – List of articles and interviews
- The Islamic State – SUSRIS Special Section
- Secretary Kerry, Prince Saud Al-Faisal Press Briefing – SUSRIS – Mar 5, 2015
- Kerry seeks to address Arab concerns over possible Iran nuclear deal – WashingtonPost – Mar 5, 2015
- Secretary Kerry to Visit Riyadh for Consultations – Background Brief – SUSRIS – Mar 4, 2015
- Anti-Daesh Coalition Conclave in Belguim – Joint Statement – SUSRIS – Dec 4, 2014
- Secretary Kerry Remarks on Anti-Islamic State Coalition Meeting – SUSRIS – Dec 4, 2014
- Saudi Foreign Minister Affirms Anti-ISIS, Anti-Terror Stand – SUSRIS – Dec 4, 2014
- Joint Statement on Communicating Da’esh/ISIL’s True Nature – State Department – Oct 27, 2014
- Analysis The Islamic State: The Case for Expanding the Air War – Cordesman – SUSRIS – Sep 25, 2014
- Breaking News | Saudi Embassy Washington Makes It Official – SUSRIS – Sep 23, 2014
- Focus KSA – Gulf Challenges Conference – Katz (Transcript) – SUSRIS – Sep 22, 2014
- Analysis | Rethinking Strategy Toward the Islamic State – Alterman – SUSRIS – Sep 22, 2014
- Secretary Kerry Senate Testimony on Islamic State Group Plan – SUSRIS – Sep 18, 2014
- President Obama Lays Out U.S. Plan on Islamic State Group – SUSRIS – Sep 18, 2014
- Analysis-ISIS Campaign: Key Issues for Washington – Cordesman – SUSRIS – Sep 17, 2014
- Analysis-The Emergence of the GCC+4 Against ISIS – Karasik – SUSRIS – Sep 15, 2014
- Joint Statement: Foreign Minister Prince Saud & Secretary of State Kerry – SUSRIS – Sep 11, 2014
- Jeddah Communique Confirms Regional Anti-ISIS Stance – SUSRIS – Sep 11, 2014
- Saudi Arabia Hosts Coalition-Building Regional Conference (Photos) – SUSRIS – Sep 11, 2014
- Building a Regional Coalition Against ISIS – SUSRIS – Sep 9, 2014
- Viewing the Islamic State from Riyadh’s Perspective – Fahad Nazer – Sep 2, 2014
- “Crisis in Iraq” SUSRIS Special Section from June 2014
- Focus KSA: Special Report – Region in Crisis – Dr. Theodore Karasik (Transcript) – SUSRIS – Aug 22, 2014
- Focus KSA: Special – Dr. Theodore Karasik – Region in Crisis (Video) – SUSRIS – Aug 22, 2014
- Saudi Envoy to UK Challenges Media Claims on ISIS Support – SUSRIS – Aug 18, 2014
- US Intervention in Iraq, a “Confounding” Decision – Fahad Nazer, SUSRIS, Aug 8, 2014
- Official Saudi Statement Rebuts ISIS Allegations – SUSRIS – Jul 8, 2014
- Inside ISIS – Journeyman – July 2014 (Video) – SUSRIS
- Focus KSA | Conversation With Theodore Karasik: Iraq Crisis (Pt 1)(Transcript) – SUSRIS – Jul 5, 2014
- Focus KSA – Dr. Theodore Karasik: Iraq Crisis Spillover (Video) – SUSRIS – Jul 4, 2014
- Focus KSA – Special Edition | Crisis in Iraq: What Impact for Saudi Arabia (Transcript) – SUSRIS – Jul 2, 2014
- Focus KSA Interview – Steve Clemons on the Iraq Crisis (Transcript) – SUSRIS – Jul 1, 2014
- King Abdullah and Secretary Kerry in Iraq Crisis Consultations – SUSRIS – Jun 26, 2014
- Iraq Crisis Portends Unfathomable Consequences – Prince Mohammed bin Nawaf – SUSRIS – Jun 26, 2014
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